In this episode of the Hotel Moment podcast, Karen Stephens, Revinate CMO, and JC Thompson, Founder and CEO of Pursuance, step into the world of performance coaching — exploring what it means to be a good coach for your hotel staff, especially for reservations departments. Thompson describes the pitfalls of traditional performance coaching methods on staff morale juxtaposed with performance coaching that centers hotel data application and group positivity.

Listen in for a fresh perspective on how you can improve your team’s overall productivity, meet industry standards and criteria, and use your guest data to boost team confidence.

Meet your host

As Chief Marketing Officer at Revinate, Karen Stephens is focused on driving long-term growth by building Revinate’s brand equity, product marketing, and customer acquisition strategies. Her deep connections with hospitality industry leaders play a key role in crafting strategic partnerships.

Karen is also the host of The Hotel Moment Podcast, where she interviews top players in the hospitality industry. Karen has been with Revinate for over 11 years, leading Revinate’s global GTM teams. Her most recent transition was from Chief Revenue Officer, where she led the team in their highest booking quarter to date in Q4 2023.

Karen has more than 25 years of expertise in global hospitality technology and online distribution — including managing global accounts in travel and hospitality organizations such as Travelocity and lastminute.com

Connect with Karen

Transcript

Intro – 00:00:04: Welcome to The Hotel Moment podcast presented by Revinate. The podcast where we discuss how hotel technology shapes every moment of the hotelier’s experience. This podcast is hosted by Karen Stevens, Chief Marketing Officer of Revinate, and she is joined by leaders in the hospitality industry. Tune in as we explore the cutting-edge technology transforming the hospitality industry and hear from experts and visionaries shaping the future of guest experiences. Whether you’re a hotelier or a tech enthusiast, you’re in the right place. Let’s dive in and discover how we can elevate the art of hospitality together.

Karen Stephens – 00:00:43: Hello, and welcome to The Hotel Moment podcast. I’m your host, Karen Stevens, the Chief Marketing Officer of Revinate. And today we are joined by JC Thompson, founder and CEO of Pursuance. JC specializes in driving operational efficiency, brand repositioning, and leadership development within the luxury sector. With a track record of doubling revenue for multiple organizations, JC’s expertise in revenue optimization and executive coaching makes him a sought-after figure in both the hospitality and technology sectors. Welcome, JC.

JC Thompson – 00:01:15: Thank you, Karen. I’m so happy to be here.

Karen Stephens – 00:01:17: You know what? It is a pleasure to have you here. We actually have so many customers in common. I was reading some of your bios online. So you really work with some of the most beautiful brands in hospitality and luxury overall. So it’s really fun to be able to talk to you today.

JC Thompson – 00:01:31: Yeah, thank you. The destinations are bad. And I was so bummed I didn’t get to go to Navigate. I’ve been listening to the podcast and I wanted to do a live one-on-one interview. So maybe next year.

Karen Stephens – 00:01:41: That’s right. Well, we hope to have you there because like I said, we have a lot of the same customers and it really is the best brand of the business that shows up to our conference. So we’d love to have you.

JC Thompson – 00:01:51: Yeah, thank you. This kind of feels full circle. It’s a little bit weird for me because like I’ve shared in some of our pre-interview stuff, the last on-site work that I did in a hospitality sense was for a luxury resort in Scottsdale, Arizona. And this was in, I think, 2008 or early 2009. And actually, Mark and a couple other people from the Revinate team came and pitched that original dashboard. And I was the quality director at the time. So you can imagine it was like having a horse and seeing a car, right? So I was like, I can’t believe what I’m going to be able to do with this data. And so it’s been kind of fun in parallel to, yes, have a lot of my customers also use some of your platforms, but also just kind of watch the company grow up. So it’s been fun.

Karen Stephens – 00:02:35: Evolve over time. Well, that’s right. It’s funny to remember that in 2008, it was so revolutionary to have all of your online reviews consolidated in one place. That was really mind blowing because that was a real problem for hotels.

JC Thompson – 00:02:49: Yeah, 100%.

Karen Stephens – 00:02:49: Okay, great. So tell us a little bit about Pursuant. So I know this is a company that you founded, it sounds like at the beginning of this year. Obviously, you’ve had a long background in coaching and doing other things, but tell us at the core, what is Pursuance?

JC Thompson – 00:03:02: Yeah, absolutely. So I really founded Pursuance with the goal of in-depth, deep dive engaging with a very specific subset of customers. I was a consultant for 10 to 12 years in the space working, like you said, with luxury hospitality, but also a lot of boutique and aspirational hospitality brands. And I feel like a lot of firms that are out there in the space, they pride themselves on switching up who engages with the customer. And I really wanted to do the opposite of that. I wanted to generate personal relationships with these customers, embed myself in the operation, and really help them drive results, particularly with working individually with the leaders. And so that’s what I committed to do. I said, hey, I’m only going to work with 26 clients a year. That’s what our firm specializes in. And we’re going to really deep dive and drive huge results for them.

Karen Stephens – 00:03:50: Wow. So that’s really interesting to me. So let’s kind of unpack that a little bit. So you’re coming in, let’s say you start with a luxury brand. So you come in and you’re helping them not only improve operational efficiency, but then you’re also in conjunction with that coaching some of their leadership team as well. Is that how it works? Like just take me through just so I can get a better understanding.

JC Thompson – 00:04:10: Yeah, that’s exactly right. So I’ll use a very specific example in terms of scope. A lot of the work that I’ve done over my career has been in the revenue generation space, which again has tied directly back to revenue. So taking guest feedback or taking sales data, basically, and helping drive agent performance through that. Well, this gives me the opportunity to not only work one-on-one with the agent, but kind of shift the paradigm. So a lot of companies out there are doing sales training and some are doing it really well. And some are kind of doing the same thing everywhere they go. But regardless, a lot of the measurement of that sales training success is in QA, is in secret shops of the agents. And one of the things I did before I started this company was talk to the end user, the end customer, but also the employees or agents that are actually delivering this phone call or standing in a front desk, checking people in. And what I found from talking to them was the criteria drives them crazy. They hate it. And it really creates human robots. And what we want is human emotional connection. And that’s really what the customer wants too. And all the research I did before I started this company said, the customer wants a human connection. That’s why they’re calling. That’s why they’re coming there. So really, if we can strip back the criteria, if we could strip back the Q&A, still measure progress, still measure against metrics, but really spend our time engaging with leaders, engaging with agents one-on-one, that is what drives success. That’s what drives revenue. So that’s what my company does. So instead of doing QA, instead of doing secret shop calls on a reservations team, let’s say at a luxury hotel, we spend six months after each program, executive coaching and working one-on-one with the leaders on how to take the revenue data and give people feedback, how to hold people accountable, how to set up a drip campaign of content that we’re working with agents on. So that’s kind of what we do differently than anyone else in space today.

Karen Stephens – 00:06:05: Right. I love that. So I think one of the buzzwords right now everywhere is obviously AI, artificial intelligence. And I think you hit on something pretty special there, though. I think that I’d love to get your feedback on this. The more that AI comes in, there’s certainly a place. I think, Revinate, we think about, we want to use AI to populate the right pieces of data at the right time, whether that’s in front of a res agent or somebody checking somebody in. But at the end of the day, it’s the human connection. That’s why people are calling the phone number. They don’t want to talk to a bot. They’re not bugging online. So can you talk a little bit about how you help teams? There’s a lot of data out there, but how do you make sure that it is personal so that the end of the day, that guest experience is the best it can be?

JC Thompson – 00:06:47: Yeah. So first of all, I 100% agree. We’re going to need both things. We’re going to need HI and AI. I want human intelligence, but I also want artificial intelligence. And we know from our research that 80% of the people that are calling, all they want is affirmation that they’ve made the right choice. Did I get the best value? Is this the right place? Is this the right price? So really teaching these agents or whoever is taking these calls that’s a human being to be that comforting voice to say, this is the best deal. This is the right place. This is exactly what you wanted. The customer’s already done the research. And I know from going out and engaging face-to-face with a lot of these teams, whether it be at a huge global contact center or whether it be onsite at a boutique hotel that has 50 rooms, is people are calling going, I’m looking at your site and seeing X. Is this right? So a lot of it is just affirming the choices that the customer’s already made. And I just don’t see AI doing that, at least in the next three years.

Karen Stephens – 00:07:43: I think you’re exactly right. I think the more it rolls out, the more people are going to want that human connection. And if you’re doing it right, you know how to leverage the data at the right time to get the right guest at the right package with the right offer, all of it at the same time. So that’s really interesting to me.

JC Thompson – 00:07:59: And I think that when I look at it, I kind of look at it at a 50-50. You can have great data about who the customer is, what they’re purchasing, what conversion is. You can have all that stuff. But on the other side of it, if your leaders don’t know how to provide feedback to shift the behavior of the agent, it doesn’t really matter. And then conversely, what I see more often, and this is, I think, how the relationship that I’ve had with Revenate has evolved over the years, is more often because I’m going into some of these more boutique or more independent hotel spaces, they have no data. Which is terrifying to me. I’m like, what do you mean you don’t know how many people called? So I think plugging that in and turning on that light bulb for them and then adding to it, and here’s what to do with that data. Here’s how to provide feedback to people is really important. It’s really kind of honestly sad to me how many people are in a position of leadership out there that have no idea how to give people feedback, how to hold people accountable. And that’s really kind of the gift we like to give back to our customers is, here’s how to have that conversation and keep retention and lower turnover. And let’s not have people leave. We know in five years in hospitality on average, close to 100% of these employees are going to turn over. And I think that’s been the consulting business model is count on people leaving. So you have to go back and do more work. Well, we’re doing the opposite of that. We’re trying to get as few people as possible to leave. And to do that, we’ve got to A, invest in those people, see them as future leaders, but also give them the tools to use the data, to shift human behavior.

Karen Stephens – 00:09:30: I would love to click down a little bit more on your coaching with leadership and feedback, because I do think hopefully people can appreciate if you are a res sales agent and you are taking a phone call, especially if you are in a central res center, you’re representing multiple properties. There’s a lot of stuff you’ve got going on. You’ve got to basically make a booking. You have to understand what’s going on with each of the hotels, how to speak to the specific services. All of these things are happening. You’re being recorded. You could be secret shopped by Forbes or someone else. So those agents are under a tremendous amount of pressure. How do you coach leadership to give great feedback that keeps those agents engaged and feeling good about themselves in the midst of all of the multiple things that are going on simultaneously?

JC Thompson – 00:10:14: I think it’s a couple of things. One, in the 30 days following the onsite work that we do, I’m only looking for positive things. Order two to three things in every single call that went well. And sometimes it’s as simple as, hey, you answered the phone. Great job, right? Because that could be it. That could be the only good thing. I will tell you though, from providing feedback to a lot of people, typically people are harder on themselves than you’re going to be on them anyway. So I’m sitting down with an agent to say, hey, what do you think went well on that call? And they’re saying nothing. It was terrible. So you’re saying, well, come on. There were some things that were good there. So I think it’s finding what’s good. And I think that’s what a coach is always doing is looking for what’s good in a situation. So that’s thing one. And then I think the mistake leaders make is trying to do too much is saying, well, here’s the 10 things I think you could do. Right? And so I really try to focus on one thing, maybe two things that are really key initiatives that could really, A, improve the conversion, but B, make the agent feel more comfortable and confident that they’re doing it well. And that goes back to that criteria, right? A lot of the providers in the space, and I’m not speaking about quality assurance. I want to talk about Forbes and LQA too, because I think there’s an easy way to solve that problem that most hotels have is how do I nail the Forbes shop, but also not create robots? And there is a happy medium there, it is possible. But a lot of the criteria that’s in the space today is it’s 40, 50 point criteria. And I think that’s part of the model is for a sales training person to come in year after year, they have to overcomplicate the criteria because they have to teach you how to navigate it. But really we’ve been able to put a five point criteria in place, a very simple criteria, bake Forbes and LQA into the cake so that if you’re following the process, you’re already using the guest name. You’re already welcoming them. You’re already doing all the things that they’re going to look for. You’ll nail the Forbes part. I want to make that the minimum expectation and get to the fun part, which is creating human connection, making this person excited that they’re going to come to this place. And that’s the happy medium between those two things that I think you can do. But I would challenge any leader to go back and look at the criteria that’s in place and go, is this killing the morale, positivity, excitement on my team? Because we’re so focused on checking off these 300 boxes. And meanwhile, the customer is very unhappy. The other thing I would say, I think it’s kind of fun with that, fun in a sarcastic kind of way, is the number one thing I hear from reservations leaders, revenue leaders is frustration that their worst employee, the most toxic person on the team, gets a hundred percent on the shops. If they’ve learned to game the system and that should tell you my criteria is terrible because yeah, the customer might have purchased, but listen to this call, you know, you want to pull your hair out. And I hear that all the time is, okay, what do I do? My worst employee, is my highest revenue producer. That’s the number one thing I hear.

Karen Stephens – 00:13:01: Right. Absolutely. And they’re completely missing the emotional connection, which is why we’re all in this biz. I feel like if you’re in hospitality and you’re tried and true and you love it, you’re there because you sincerely want to deliver the best vacation of a lifetime, the best experience of a lifetime to whoever’s on the phone or standing in front of you as you check in at the hotel. So I think what you said there is really important. And I love the idea of narrowing it down to five things. You know, look at all that.

JC Thompson – 00:13:29: Let’s incentivize, let’s compensate people on emotional connection, not on, did you say the name three times? Something’s been lost there that we have to get back to. I think if you and I had this conversation seven years ago, I think we would maybe have been talking about, is the voice element, is someone calling a hotel or a destination going to go away altogether? Well, I think that’s been proven that’s not true. There are a high percentage of people that are willing to make those purchase decisions without talking to anybody. But I think that a lot of people want that. They want to reaffirm, am I making the right choice? Is this a good use of my money? And I don’t think that necessarily correlates with age. For a while, we’re like, oh, well, anyone under 30, they’re just going to book it online. Well, that’s proving to be untrue.

Karen Stephens – 00:14:13: It really is. And I mean, I will be the first one to put my hands up. When Revinate acquired NavVis, I thought, voice channel, what are we doing? Like the voice channel. It’s going away. And then, of course, now, wow, I mean, we’ve had NavVis for three years now or OneRevinate. It’s amazing how it fits into the platform. But you really start to understand what a critical channel that is. And the people that are calling in on that channel, it is really making sure that they are, as you said, you’re affirming that this purchase that I’m going to make that is my holiday for the year or the family reunion or whatever it might be, is the best it can be. And that voice on the other side of the line is giving me all of the things to fill in the gaps. So that, I think, is really critical. It’s not going to go away. My question for you would be, how are you starting to see the digital transformation impact that voice channel? And how are those complementary so that people start to understand how they get the online experience and then the final piece with the voice?

JC Thompson – 00:15:11: Yeah, so I’ve worked with a lot of clients to completely rebuild verbiage on their website. So that. It speaks to the voice experience. It’s delivered in the exact same format and spirit that one of the agents would. Because if that’s, in effect, the beginning of the relationship, almost across the board, if the first interaction they’re going to have at the hotel is through the verbiage that’s on that site, well, let’s build that site to speak to it exactly like the agent’s going to when they, regardless, are going to call anyway. So really thinking about the guest journey as starting earlier than we did before. So before, we would have said the guest journey starts in any human-to-human contact, and define all those touch points. Well, now we’re moving out further ahead and saying, well, yeah, this email is the beginning of that. This interaction through the web portal or through mobile is the first interaction. So how are we looking at the content and not just the words that are there, whether it’s written by a human being or AI, and how it’s structured, how the sentences are even structured so that they match exactly the kind of experience that I want to have voice-to-voice? I know it’s much more effective based on our research, to have a voice of connection. So get that person to spend more and also to make the purchase. But that doesn’t mean we can’t make some small tweaks in the written and visual experience, too, so that it feels more cohesive. It feels like part of the same story. I think that’s where those pieces are coming together.

Karen Stephens – 00:16:36: It’s like the definition of omni-channel. It’s like no matter how the guest, because I do think that people do have multiple touch points before they make that booking. And so I love the idea that you definitely have to be consistent in your positioning the whole time, so that’s critical.

JC Thompson – 00:16:51: And what I talk to digital marketers or PR or social people about is you’re setting up a gotcha. Because when people call in that voice channel, they almost have this in their pocket. So they’re going to listen to what you present in terms of options. They’re going to listen to you present the hotel, the resort, whatever. And then a percentage of them are going to go, huh? Well, I saw something different online. It’s like, it’s so important that that story is cohesive because you’re basically setting up a local complaint department.

Karen Stephens – 00:17:21: Which is not what you want to do.

JC Thompson – 00:17:23: Not what you want to do. Not how you get people to stay at work.

Karen Stephens – 00:17:26: Awesome. So given your extensive experience in brand repositioning within hospitality, how does your company integrate the hotel tech stack and its strategies to help clients differentiate themselves? So are you also advising on, do you go in and you’re like, okay, you mentioned some of your clients, they don’t even have any data. So what is your approach? Because as a technology vendor, I think the worst case scenario you can have is just stuck on top of each other that’s not interacting. So is that part of what you do with hotels as well is advise them on how to approach that?

JC Thompson – 00:17:58: Yeah, well, I think as part of the initial discovery in those bigger brand projects, that’s part of the first conversation is, okay, let’s define the KPIs. That’s where we, in the discovery, find out there is no data or there’s very unclean data. So typically that’s where that introduction takes place. I don’t think it would surprise anyone to say those Forbes, Michelin, those providers are who most people reference to say, we want to be a blank star or a key or pick a measurement. But I think on the back end of that, part of our job as the consultants is to inform them, well, here’s the data you really care about. And here’s the metrics. If I was running this hotel, I’d be looking at. And that’s typically where a platform like yours comes into play where we’re saying, yeah, these aren’t data points. This is what you’re actually looking for. And teaching them not only how to use the tool, which I know you all do very well, but teaching them again, how to take the data and provide feedback in a standup meeting on that data. That motivates people instead of decimating them.

Karen Stephens – 00:18:58: Yeah. Actionable outcomes. Yeah. I love it. Take it a positive approach. And that just makes sense. People want to feel good about what they’re doing and get feedback in a way that they can action and feel better about.

JC Thompson – 00:19:09: Absolutely. But if you don’t have access to the data, whether it’s good or bad, you’re driving blind.

Karen Stephens – 00:19:14: That makes sense. Now, I want to go way back because I just think this is so interesting, your trajectory of how you got from where you started within the hotel. If I’m out there, I’m listening to you and I’m someone who wants to get into this line of work. Can you just give us an idea of how you got here?

JC Thompson – 00:19:30: Sure. So I went to school for hospitality at Arizona State, go Devils. And my first job was driving an airport shuttle for a Marriott hotel. And I will tell you what I learned from that job was that you treat every customer the same because I would have a family of five with 40 bags and tip me nothing. And then I’d have a business traveler who carried his own briefcase, give you a hundred dollar bill. So you never know. So that’s how I started my career. And then I became a concierge and worked in a variety of roles for four seasons, front office primarily. But I ended up in residential sales there, which was kind of cool. And that aspect of hospitality, I think a lot of people don’t get to experience. It was fractional ownership of locations in Punta Mesa, Mexico, Costa Rica, Jackson Hole, and Scottsdale. So it was cool meeting a customer that’s so obsessed with the brand, they’re willing to actually purchase real estate at it. I think a lot about that and how that shaped my trajectory after that, because it’s really the customer that never leaves. Think of your worst customer. Well, this one comes back every single day. So it’s like, how do you set up a relationship, a long-term relationship with that person? And that’s where some of those personal relationships and probably a lot of the foundation of how I structured my company came from is like, I want to really know people. I don’t want to just have them come for three days. I want to get to know these people and know their family and know their habits and their… Likes and things like that. But along the way, I had directors of sales and marketing, particularly, that saw something in me and brought me along to the next phase. That project in Scottsdale, becoming a quality director, that position didn’t exist at hotels at that time, in the early aughts. A lot of roles and opportunities that I saw a need, and I went to a GM and I pitched it. And that’s what I would say to anyone that’s out there that has aspirations, but they go, I don’t fit into the box that everyone said. I remember vividly being in a management and training program, which a lot of people in and out there right now, going through housekeeping, going through rooms, understanding all the aspects of the operation. And everyone in that group was like, I want to be a GM someday. And my response was, that sounds like a nightmare. I didn’t have that aspiration. And all those people, they achieved whatever they set out to do. Some it took five years, some it took 20. But I always said, gosh, I know there’s this need in the space. And I would go to the GM, to my asset manager, to any of those people and pitch it. You need me in this role, and here’s why. And so I would tell anybody out there, if you have aspirations like that, if you want to work for yourself and be a consultant, or if you want to be a director of X that doesn’t exist yet at the hotel, go pitch it. Because you’d be surprised how many people out there in our space, which is not exactly known for innovation, let’s be real, would take it on and go, okay, let’s pilot it for 12 months and see. And that’s how the whole journey started for me, is going to an asset manager or GM and saying, you need a quality director. This is a mess. You have all this revenue data. You don’t know what to do with it. Put me in, coach. So that’s really the high level of how you go from driving an airport shuttle to consulting with some of the best hotels in the world.

Karen Stephens – 00:22:36: I love it. And you have worked with some beautiful brands. I mean, absolutely amazing. So I love that. So, I mean, basically, at the end of the day, you would say, take a risk, think outside the box. And I mean, you know, you think, too, what’s the worst case scenario? You get to know.

JC Thompson – 00:22:51: You still have a job, and it’s just like, hey, go pitch it. That’s so cool.

Karen Stephens – 00:22:55: Okay, so the last question for you, how has your approach to coaching people changed over the years? As you’ve evolved, what’s one thing that you would give any advice out there for someone who’s in the coaching industry? How has it evolved over time?

JC Thompson – 00:23:07: Yeah, sure. Well, I guess that is the paradox. One of the things I learned is the coach doesn’t give advice, which is really hard to do. The coach basically says, hey, when I was in the scenario, here’s what I did. They tell a story and you take from that story what you wish. You take the direction. So the coach kind of uses a softer hand in that way, which I think has been an evolution, particularly for, well, myself, but anyone in that space that you’re so used to a friend calling you up and saying, tell me what to do, right? And so the coach instead says. Well, here’s a scenario I was in like that and what I did in hopes that the person will gleam what’s necessary for themselves. So I think that’s thing one. And then the other thing I think has changed over time, but I think has been greatly beneficial both to me and the people that I work with is accountability. I have people submit to me what they want to talk about in advance. I take time to prepare because it shows them that they’re important. And I took focus and effort. I bring my stories that I want to tell, but I never walk in going, hey, what do you want to talk about today? So I’m always prepared in advance. They’re getting the maximum output out of our one hour and 90 minutes, whatever that timing might be. But that makes it about them and not about me because I want them to get maximum benefit. I want them to leave the conversation going. That was amazing. I could never have done that on my own, but it’s not about me. I’m just the mirror.

Karen Stephens – 00:24:28: I think that’s great advice for leaders as well. Whether you’re a coach or you’re a leader, I think accountability for yourself as well and preparing that space for the employee. I think that’s fantastic advice all the way around.

JC Thompson – 00:24:40: Yeah, and I would say to a leader, if you don’t have the resources, the money necessary to have a coach, or you have employees coming to you constantly asking questions that you know they know the answer to, my advice to you would be create an environment that they can share those. Create a framework. I’m going to give you one hour every week. You bring me whatever you want to talk about. You bring me your list. And I think you will find that people that are constantly interrupting you, constantly bringing you questions that you want them to answer, if you structure it, if you put a framework around it, you will find the questions will get less and less. Once they know the space to think with you is there, that’s when the schizophrenic nature stops and people calm and they focus. So I would caution any leader out there, if you’re feeling chaos, if you’re feeling those constant uncertainties and questions from your team to reflect, are you giving people enough space? Are you giving them office hours that they can think with you? Because people tend to do that when they don’t have anyone to think with. They’re kind of feeling by themselves. And that’s the job of a coach is just to be someone to think with. And that’s what people are looking for.

Karen Stephens – 00:25:44: I love it. Well, thank you so much. My guest today was JC Thompson, the founder and CEO of Pursuance. JC it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining me today.

JC Thompson – 00:25:52: Thanks, Karen.

Outro- 00:25:57: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hotel Moment by Revinate. Our community of hoteliers is growing every week, and each guest we speak to is tackling industry challenges with the innovation and flexibility that our industry demands. If you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And if you’re listening on YouTube, please like the video and subscribe for more content. For more information, head to revinate.com/hotelmomentpodcast. Until next time, keep innovating.

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